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Apr7

Has Obama Killed Black Pride?

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WASHINGTON, April 6, 2012—For a few decades, black Liberals have settled for fakes: fake watches, fake purses, and especially fake leaders. If the black Liberal community were truthful, they would admit their disappointment in Barack Obama.

If Obama were a basketball player, he would be the equivalent of the guy who can’t inbound the ball or who constantly double-dribbles. He’s the guy to whom you just quit passing the ball, because when he gets it, he always shoots and always misses.

What happened to black pride? There was a time when black people didn’t settle for failures like Obama; they expected more from blacks who were blessed to get the opportunity for greatness. Whether it was sports, entertainment, or politics, blacks who were set up for something transcendental carried the expectation of the entire black race on their shoulders. Much was riding on his or her success, regardless of the role.

Each time the baton was passed, the next black understood the obligation to represent, to show the world that the black man had a contribution to make, and we would not squander it. We were to be among the best, and expected to be better than whites at whatever we wanted to succeed. Many blacks received the admonition that, if you were to do a job that put you in the spotlight, do it “twice as good as a white person.”

Read the rest at the Washington Post here…

 
 
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  • doubleSorsomething

    A Tea Party black white supremacist daring to utter such words. Amazing! You just keep outdoing yourself, teabagger beeyotch!

  • doubleSorsomething

    What happened to your great conservative black man, Colin Powell, once he got into bed with the white power structure of the conservative movement? How about J.C. Watts? They found out the hard way, and Watts is still shillin' for them. Black pride, indeed.

  • doubleSorsomething

    Ummmmm….Washington Times (nutjob central) not Post (respected rag)…………..nice Kev…………

  • doubleSorsomething

    You must be so proud writing for the Moony paper. Was that Post thing a type-o or were you wishing to slightly obscure the loony rag you got a column in?? From wikipedia:

    The Washington Times is a daily broadsheet newspaper published in Washington, D.C., the capital of the United States. It was founded in 1982 by Unification Church founder Sun Myung Moon, and until 2010 was owned by News World Communications, an international media conglomerate associated with the church.

    • Irene

      Why bother quoting from wikipedia? Quote from a reliable source. Anybody can change and/or write whatever it is they choose.

    • Yngblkcons

      Did you read the article (none of your posts seem to address any of its arguments) or decline to do so just because it was printed in the Washington Times?

      • doublemint

        To read Kevin is to commune with him in his corrupt and convoluted inner turmoil. You may continue to parse and dissect his mental vomit as you wish. My only intention is to stamp a foot print into this mutual masturbation ant hill.

        • ant

          And such a noble intention…my, how your endeavors must make you and those stupid enough to associate with you so very proud. Keep up the good work, loser….with a capital 'L'.

  • Thomas Fortunato

    Kevin,

    I see the negative commentary on you article is lacking in substance as usual. if you cant make an argument, stick to name calling and racial slurs. the liberal ideology always shines through when they get mad.

    Anyways, this really a poignant article. I rank it up there with the writings of Thomas Sowell, Walt Williams, star parker, Dr. Alan Keyes , charles krauthhammer and Larry Elder. I post articles by all of you guys as a means of educating the racist liberals and their eugenics loving entourage on how they portray minorities as pathetic dependent human beings unable to do anything without a government initiative.

    You and so many others prove them wrong everyday. As a father of 2 african Boys I point them to people like yourself as people to inspire them to greatness. you are doing a tremendous service to this country and the world.

    keep up the great work!

    • doubleSorsomething

      Is this a new nom de plum, Kev? Tommy Fortunato?

  • doubleSorsomething

    Adhering to an Australian corporate raider's vision of America's future and writing for a Korean Moony newspaper. Who in their right mind can question your patriotic American black man bonefides??

  • Linky Drake

    When you’re confident of victory, there’s no need to be vicious.

    Only scared people slur others.

    Only insecure people instigate and insult those they disagree with.

    Only people with too much time on their hands post to themselves…

    Sad…

    • docjohndenver

      Linky, as always, brilliant. Pay no attention to the gnat buzzing around our heads named "double.."

  • doubleSorsomething

    Thanks, Drinky Lake, I couldn't have described Kevin's posts any better than you just did!

    • Lisa

      If you are so insightful why not link us to a brilliant article you have written.

      • doubleornuttin

        You first, Lisa. You link me to something brilliant you've written so that I might discover your standard of what is brilliant.

  • who_cares

    As far as that goes, Obama's youth was spent primarily with white people (i.e. his mother and her parents). Obama shares much more in common with white people than he does with black people. Yet some blacks proudly proclaim that Obama is one of us. He isn't. His father was from Kenya (not anywhere close to the US). So where did he get his pass on being an authentic black (whatever that is)? It is pretty amazing that upwards of 90% of a voting group voted for him just because of the color of his skin. Sheep following their leaders led to Obama's election. The group think pretty much tanked on his watch.

    Anyone bother to notice that blacks are worse off now than when Bush was in office? How's that 40+% unemployment working out for you? But saying anything derogatory about the I WON automatically gets the race card played. So what I am a racist. When every white person is a racist then it becomes just another watered down, trite phrase thrown around to incite.

    Van Jones said that Obama could declare himself a homosexual and still the majority of blacks would vote for him. Who knows – who cares? Blacks left the slave owners plantations in the 1860s only to return to the government plantation in 1965. New owners who still regard the black people with distain.

    • djs

      You know there are rumors out there about Obama and Rahm Emmanuel frequenting "Man Brothels" in Chicago. That wouldn't surprise me. What does the panel think about that one?

      • docjohndenver

        djs, I think I can speak for most people when I say one story about Rahm Emmanuel in the shower with another man was enough.

    • Yngblkcons

      America for generations went by the 1/16 rule and generally speaking, Americans still go by it. My best friend when I was an undergrad was a half white/half black guy with an American white mother and an African father (they are married) who considered himself black.

      He once explained to me that among whites he was seen as black and among blacks he was seen as black, so he didn't see a point in trying to carve out a separate identity. Quite a few American blacks are mixed to one degree or another and some of us don't trace out roots here to slave times (my mother's parents came here from Jamaica, does that make her or me less American?) so trying to impose some sort of purity test would be tough, to put it mildly.

    • misnomer58

      Barack Obama skin is dark, very dark, hence 'black man'. You think the kkk would not hang him because his father was "not anywhere close to the US"? NONE of us dark folks originally here dude, I guess that's where the word 'African-American' came from, right? Your post is typical tea part hogwash. It is also the reason why folks of color and far more of you own community don't want to have ANYTHING to do with the ilk of your clan.

  • Linky Drake

    I wasn’t addressing Kevin’s posts… but then you knew that didn’t you? Wassa mattah? Conscience bothering you?

    • double

      it don't mattah wassa mattah

  • docjohndenver

    Kevin, an interesting article. I remember having a late night conversation with a friend in medical school. He was brilliant and is a fine physician to this day with a high position in academia now. He told me something interesting. His parents told him when he was young that, as a black person, he was going to have to work "twice as hard" to get ahead. Those are the exact words he used. Then he said something that was very troubling to me. He said, "So after I get into a fine college, do well, and get into medical school I walk around here knowing that half of the people think I got here because of affirmative action." I assured him that wasn't true as I had never thought it or heard it said about him. He was a hard working, freaking genius and we all knew it. But he felt that way. Is that a common feeling among blacks who are high-achievers or just this fellow's personal feeling? If it is common then it adds to the problems for blacks that those that built this country couldn't have even really imagined.

    • joeclyde

      You aren't that daft.

      • docjohndenver

        Don't tell me how daft I am. I will have you know I am professional at being daft. But your comment may even be more daft than me.

  • double

    This freaking genius of yours is probably a big time Rethug supporter, right doc? No?
    Having just garnered a column in the Moonie Times, Kevin is certainly the one to ask about the feelings of high achieving blacks.

    • docjohndenver

      doubleparked, actually he is quite left leaning, having spent the last twenty years in academia. But he is a genius nonetheless and I still feel bad that he felt that way all those years ago. I don't really know if he still feels that way or not, but at one of the most difficult times in all of our lives there was a bitterness that the rest of us never imagined was there. I never heard him talk about it other than that one time. But he was genuinely upset by it. It just seemed sad to me because he was certainly in the top five most deserving to be there out of our class and his subsequent success bears that out. Try to have a happy Easter, double. Think about happy things today. Let your bitterness go for one day.

      • double

        I am having a happy Easter, doc. My H.S. lefty power pitcher son is mentoring my friend's ten year old on proper form on the mound. Sunny, about 72 degrees out. What's not to like?
        Enjoyed the story about your friend. People are interesting. I would like to note that I have been a little more gracious, regarding your tale, than you were about mine when I related the story of an old Herman Cain classmate's observations about Herman. But hey, it's Easter, forgive and forget, right?
        Somewhat dismayed you have no comment on Kevin writing for the Moonie Times. Interesting type-o, too, describing the link as being to the the Washington Post…hmmm…
        Have a great Sunday.

        • docjohndenver

          The difference between our two related stories were, as you know, yours was a third person anecdote and mine was told to me by the actual person with the bad feeling. And my story did not denigrate the subject. In fact, it made him somewhat sympathetic as a character. But, to be fair, it is why I threw it out as a question and there is some validity to what you are saying. I will never understand people like you calling hateful names and such. You clearly are an intelligent family man. I have no doubt if you walked into my office we would get along famously. So your complete disdain for me because I believe in conservativism puzzles me. I left open the possibility that my friend's feelings about affirmative action indeed may not be a common problem. It took me back at the time, quite frankly, and every single time affirmative action comes up it comes to my mind. And, believe me, while spending about sixty hours a week ( talking to folks about their problems in a poor, predominantly non-white neighborhood) the subject comes up all the time. And the opinions on it are much more varied than I am sure your concrete leftist ideology would imagine.

  • Pat

    Man, as the saying goes, "You know you are over the target when you are taking flak" sure applies here eeh?
    Geez, I guess the left leaners don't want any of this uppity talk from a black man. Since Kevin is a righty he must be deranged, bought off or just stupid.

    • double

      The Moonie Times, Pat. The Moonie Times. Think about it. The Reverend Sun Myung Moon.

      • docjohndenver

        double, we get it. You do not like the Times because of Moon's involvement. We heard you the first fifty times. Think the history of every other newspaper and media outlet is perfect? Quite the contrary. Look up the history of the Chicago Tribune, New York Times, NBC. Moon was a nut but that does not disqualify everything written in the Times. This is a reach and, as much as I hate to admit it, your sardonic vengeful screeds are usually better than this.

        • double

          Think what you will, doc. I am here solely to fuck with Kevin. He has often bragged that he can kick me out and keep me out because of his superior tech team. He is wrong about that and so many other things. Fuck you, teabagger beeyotch and Moonie Times columnist, Kevin Jackson.

        • double

          More importantly, doc, we are on the third play-off hole at Augusta and we need to put that green jacket back on an American.

          • docjohndenver

            double, I hope you are happy Bubba won it. I am. I am still (despite my misgivings at his personal travails) a Tiger fan. I thought he had a chance after last week, but alas, he sprayed his drives (and believe me, as a person who only plays golf about twice a year I know about spraying drives. I am an expert.) I will never understand the hateful things you say to Kevin Jackson. He is one of the most gracious people I have ever spoken with. I read his first book and (for the first time in my life) sent an email about how it touched me that he was a black kid living in a fairly rich, lily white setting on the ranch he moved to. I was a white doctor's kid at a poor, mostly black school. So I related to the "in the world, but not of it" narrative. So what does he do? Kevin called me personally the next day. I couldn't believe it. And he has been quite gracious with kind words after I had brain surgery recently. So I do not understand your disdain for him. But I'm glad an American won the masters, too.

          • double

            I am glad to see an American first time winner at the Masters. I am in Atlanta, so I have the same azaleas and pine trees, the same weather and time of day as I watch the tournament each year. I thought Bubba displayed what it is like to get into that "zone", kind of like a Zen archer. That shot off of the pine straw was as good as it gets. As for Tiger, I've always been a tremendous fan but I must say that the absence of his negative energy in the final groups was refreshing.

            Kevin Jackson works for the enemy. He is aligned with the Koch brothers and the corporate shills in Congress and, now, the judiciary, who would cripple progress, sell our natural resources to countries that replace our workers and cripple any chance of a bright future for America. All of this under the teabagger banner of "personal responsibility". What a cruel hoax. He can find nothing good to say about a good and decent first family. He, like so many of the right-wing liars and fabricators who have joined the corporate sponsored cottage industry of hate, is a blight on our civil discourse. He and his ilk deny my American patriotism. And for that, especially for that, he and his ilk will find us an even more formidable foe.
            Thank you for your reasoned inquiry, doc.

          • djs

            What you just said double will in fact cause me to investigate this Kevin Jackson fellow and find out what he's about. I believe this whole right wing vs left wing thing is another devisive tactic used by those in charge to keep forward thinking people at odds. The bottom line is our country is in dire straits and we the people have to put our differences aside and take our country back from those who want to enslave us all. You think those at the top of the food chain (Rothschilds, Rockefellers, JP Morgan, etc.) are either Democrat or Republican. I submit to you a quote from the late Mayer Rothschild. "As long as I have control over a nation's currency I care not who makes its laws". Think about it, our currency is controlled by these international thieves. (Federal Reserve)

          • double

            Knowingly or unknowingly, it doesn't matter to me, KJ is on their side.

          • djs

            Just reading his bio KJ is definitely a proponent of capitalism. (Capitalizing off the misfortune and ignorance of others) If he is in fact a corporate shill he's not to be trusted at all costs. I don't know that to be the case so I will reserve judgement until further notice. As for Obama, the high of him becoming the nation's first black President has worn off. Most of these politicians run their own businesses. If they handled their businesses the same way they handle America's business, none of them would have businesses. It's nice to be able to stuff your pockets and pass the bill to someone else. (American Taxpayer) I quite frankly am fed up with all of these lying bastards. It's not that difficult to put together a common sense agenda that would serve the needs of the American People.

          • docjohndenver

            djs, read Kevin's first book. We should judge men by what they say, do, and in this case, write. The currency controller who is destroying our dollar is the behemoth we call government. A 1 trillion dollar printing that still has us at above eight percent unemployment, even when millions have stopped trying to get a job?! Are you kidding. George Soros and his ilk that shorted currencies in places like Wales do not significantly affect the dollar. A tiny oligarchic cabal running the world is true in Japan, but it is not true here. Here our economic foe is the government (only economically so don't read more into this statement). If Uncle Sam reduces taxation and regulation to my business I could hire another person to my staff. And there are literally millions of small businesses in the same boat.

          • djs

            I agree the government's taxation and regulation policies inhibit real growth. However, what or who is behind the policy makers in this country. The government does not control the currency. Those who control the currency use the government to keep the masses scavenging for the crumbs that fall from their overflowing troughs. There have been hundreds of books written on this very subject and many have been quoted on warning the American public to not allow these ruthless vilians (international bankers) to seize control of the currency of this nation. Both Abraham Lincoln and John F. Kennedy wound up taking a premature dirt nap for resisting these bandits.(Rothschild, Rockefeller)

          • djs

            Doc I will use the Medical establishment in this country as an example of exploiting the people for profits. I have no doubt you're sincere in helping your patients to either improve or maintain their quality of lives. However there's serious collusion between the Hospitals, Pharmecutical companies, Medical equipment manufacturers, and the Food producers in this country. No product can diagnose, cure, treat, or prevent any disease without the approval of the FDA. In other words if it's not a patented, synthetic drug produced by Glaxo-Kline Smith or one of his other partners in crime, it can't treat or cure you of your problem. We know that's a load of bull since vitamin C cures scurvy, but under the FDA that would be a violation of the law.

          • docjohndenver

            djs, you aren't going to find me defending big pharma. I deal with their crap every day. Make a bazillion on a designer drug, lose the patent and hold it up in court for another three years to make another two billion in the meantime. Pisses me off, quite frankly while I try to scrape up samples for little old ladies who can't make it on their S. Security. I thought you were talking about devaluing currency specifically. Frankly, anything really big scares me a little bit. But the government is the only entity that can print a trillion dollars and make a promise and have it fail, thus devaluing the dollar. I misunderstood somehow. I thought that is what you were talking about.

          • djs

            Hell Doc I'm all over the place. Isn't that one of the keys to the governments control. They just confuse the hell out of us so we give in.

          • djs

            Another example. This ficticious war on cancer that was announced during the Nixon administration. After 40 years and trillions of dollars being pumped into the Cancer machine the result has been nothing short of a failure for millions that have suffered from this dreadful disease. Common sense will lead one to summize if you're body has broken down then something has caused that breakdown. If you remove whatever has caused the problem then your body should resume normal function. The real drug pushers in this country have a license and more dope is sold at Walgreens and CVS than on all of the inner-city street corners in this country.

          • docjohndenver

            djs, I hear what you are saying. But the fact remains that people live substantially longer now than they did when Nixon was talking to himself in the white house. Most of the improvements in CA treatments have been in early detection. Detecting breast CA, colon CA, prostate CA, etc. has improved tremendously so (although the number of diagnosed patients goes up) the life years lost from these CA's has gone down. Some chemo treatments have improved, but I occasionally agree with what my dad said when he was dying of CA, "Chemo doesn't make you live longer, it just seems like forever.". But I think you may be being a bit harsh on the overall system. We get new hips and knees, stented blocked arteries of our hearts, and early detection of many cancers and we get it pretty quickly. And yes, if my patients and I jump through all the right hoops, it happens for poor people often as well. I would take it over the two tiered disaster I witnessed as a resident in England, that's for sure.

          • djs

            So yes, the government is a huge problem, but the unseen hand that controls the puppets that are in office are the source of the problem. The fish stinks at the head not the tail unless the fish farts from it's tail.

          • docjohndenver

            djs, I tend to believe the hand is pretty obvious to be seen. The president, senators, and congressmen are well known to us. The idea that someone is moving Obama like a marionette or Darrel Issa is not real to me. They have advisors, but most of these guys on both sides are such megalomaniacs they would never be someone's puppet. My business is much more difficult due to government over-involvement. Honestly, big pharma, hospital collusion, etc. doesn't even get close in proportion. (although they can suck, too).

          • double

            P.S. You will not find much on KJ besides his little sideshows he does for teabagger gatherings and various strewn about self-promotion with Joe the Plumber, etc.

          • docjohndenver

            double, why do you say "teabagger"? Are you aware of its meaning? It is vile. You say Kevin brings down the discourse level? What about you? Do you have absolutely no norms to follow? Somehow that seems like one-sided morality.

          • double

            Of course I know what it means, doc. The imagery is quite apropos.You may recall that I submitted a new word to the Urban Dictionary for consideration.

            Sacksucksful: profiting from or gaining notoriety for participating in the Tea Party movement.

            I make no apology.

          • docjohndenver

            double, being on the left means never having to say you're sorry, right? I just think the malleable morals on the left are humorous. Leftists lecture incessantly about how they are the supporters of the youth, especially poor youth. And yet, the most devastating thing to a young person trying to get a job, do well in graduate education, etc. is an inability to express themselves without being crass and inappropriate. Calling someone vile names is beneath anyone who cares about civil discourse. This coarseness is pervasive and, ultimately, very damaging to our fair nation. If one is not required to respect their adversaries then there really are no rules. It is quite ironic that the Left claims the moral high ground but functions as the realm of the bottom dwellers.

          • djs

            I think Sacksuckful should be added to the Urban Dictionary immediately. That's some funny shit.

          • double

            BTW, doc, I don't recall seeing you chide Shugg, ant, or Kevin for their course language. Especially Kevin with his towel snapper's lighthearted way of accusing his detractors of pedophilia, etc. The guy has four sons for God's sake. Are you being one-sided?

          • docjohndenver

            double, I am not aware of the direct references you are making. I have gone back through the last two threads, and the vast majority of really rancid names and comments are from the left side of the aisle. My goodness, you are clearly a bright person. Heck, I'm not a prude. Some mixing it up is okay, but aren't you the one who said you think Kevin takes away from civil discourse? Are you kidding? I haven't seen him say anything vile about you that even comes close to some of your stuff. It is simply impossible to sway someone to your views when you say these things.

          • doubledealin

            KJ, from Dems to feast on Cain's demise:
            Well at least you DemTURDS admit that you like to molest children. Love that logic. We OPENLY promote loving pedophiles, look at how tolerant we are! LOVE IT!

            KJ, from When Liberals Ruled America:
            Hey It Brownlow on the Downlow! Figures that would be the part you recognize, DownLow. You liberal pedophiles are all the same! LOL

            KJ:
            LOL! I'm not sure where DL is, probably molesting little chirrens! Have a great Turkey Day!

            KJ:
            Spank that butt, Meshuggahboy! These responses show just how nutty the Left are. I LOVE when they visit. They are the internet equivalent of the OWS, pooping on my blog and leaving their used condoms around. Too funny!

            KJ:
            Stop lying DownLow, your father left you when you were born, and told your mother you were too ugly to breastfeed.

          • doubledealin

            It goes on and on. But you just never noticed??

          • docjohndenver

            double, it's a free country. If your approach is an eye for an eye than nobody will ever sway anyone, nobody learns anything and the discourse descends further into the gutter. I'm sick of it, quite frankly. Your basic argument here is, "Well, I found an example of a bad thread so I can use vile ad hom. attacks myself." Just please don't lecture anyone about how the Left wants to help the poor, huddled masses. Because it doesn't help them. Like I said, Kevin can defend himself. I defend myself. I have largely been talking to YOU on this thread and one of us has used profane name-calling to the other side. My recent and ongoing health problems have made me realize the days I have left will be spent trying to leave a positive legacy. But obviously I fail all the time at it, too. I have no doubt that if we met face to face I would want to be your friend. So I will treat you that way even though that will not happen.

          • double

            Again, you misread my intent. I am not declaring "eye for an eye". I was simply pointing out the numerous times that KJ has used the most sickening and profane accusations and language imaginable without so much as a mention from you. Just pointing out what I think is a typical conservative blind spot.
            Don't forget who you are communicating with, doc. Only in looking back at some of Kevin's comments was I able to remember how many monikers I've used here. Peaches, uncle zhivago, herman, DannyD, etc., etc.. You made some pretty nasty, condescending attacks on those people, all of whom happen to be me. Not that I didn't richly deserve them, btw. And you really underscore a point that I have tried to make in many of these earlier posts: for some reason, the good Lord chose to turn down the empathy dial on conservatives; conservatives learn compassion and empathy for others when they themselves suffer. Lee Atwater is one example I used.
            Now that you are suffering (and I pray that it would be at a minimum for you), your empathy dial seems to be turned up. But then we see it turned back down with your huddled masses comment. I believe that any kind of comfort for those folks is a help to them, and worthwhile.
            I, too, will gladly be your friend, doc. And, again, I pray for your complete comfort and recovery.

          • docjohndenver

            double, my attacks on those people were in response to unbelievably hateful attacks from them (you) and you know it. You know that you started it in those cases and I unfortunately (and regrettably on my part) waded into the mud with you. That won't happen again, I hope, but don't act like my empathy dial just turned on. I didn't start it up with peaches, herb, or whoever. You come in, you make horribly hateful, and often racist comments and then say, "see, you guys are just as bad for reacting to it". Find an example of me starting up a words war with you by using racist or hateful comments first. And how unbelievably deceptive is it to come in as multiple names. Anonymity is the uniform of the scared and hateful, my friend. I have been "suffering" with an intractable seizure disorder for almost two decades. I have been caring for the suffering for twenty years. I find your comment here extremely insulting.

          • docjohndenver

            Oh, and double, I have found conservatives to be much more empathetic to those around them that are suffering than liberals in my life experience. I find liberals to talk about large empathetic programs, while conservatives show empathy to those suffering around them. But you just talk, talk, talk… You know your behavior here has been infantile and hateful and now you are trying to find excuses. And everyone here who have read your hateful screeds knows it. I gave you every chance to show some respect for those you disagree with but you have declined that opportunity.

          • djs

            Doc my wife told me the other day I was conservative and have always been. Needless to say somebody slept on the couch LOL.

          • docjohndenver

            djs, in all seriousness, when I went AWOL from the leftist monolith of academic medicine it was tough at first. Fortunately I was in private practice by the time I had completely taken the leap. But I can remember people asking ricdiculous things like "when did you become a fascist?" I mean this garbage from people who didn't even know a poor person and made themselves feel good about it by claiming we should all pay more taxes to "help" with more social programs that had been unsuccessful for the last three decades. Twenty years later it is all funny now, but making the change publicly was not easy for me.

          • double

            You were extremely condescending and nasty with your comments earlier in our discourse. That is why you drew so much fire from me. If you have failed to perceive my recent respectful tone toward you (a person I disagree with), there is nothing more that I can do.
            Again, I wish you well with your health problems, but as you must know by now, pleasing conservatives is not one of my aspirations.

          • docjohndenver

            I respect the fact that we have had some meaningful and decent discourse. Yeah, I'm sorry about those comments. Tough couple days. No excuse. But don't forget. Your comments as Peaches and Uncle Zhivago(a moniker I love by the way) were beyond the pale. And I think you know it. I compare your comments now to a week ago and obviously they have changed. My heartfelt apologies. I do not, however, apologize for calling out about the hateful names and profane language and stuff. Frankly, double, in reality a lot of the young black men in my office will look up to someone like you more than to someone like me. Because they relate to you and see themselves as having maybe some serious life experiences. Next post…

          • docjohndenver

            So, double, it troubles me when you use language like that. No doubt you are a successful man in the judgment of our world. You obviously are a family man by virtue of your comments. So don't you think that your use of really profane language and euphemisms hurts those kids in some way? Of maybe it is just on the internet, in which case it's not right, but clearly not nearly as damaging. (because most of my young minority patients obviously aren't reading this right now.) Anyway, sorry. Have a good day. And yes, again, I have seen the change in your tone. The brain surgery wasn't the only thing that gives me empathy. So that comment hurt. My wife and children went through hell you cannot imagine. It did change my perspective so in some ways you were partially correct.

          • docjohndenver

            Also, double, if your son is a pitcher don't let him throw year round. I have seen two ruined high school pitching elbows this week because they threw every day all winter, too. I don't really know what is up with that. We don't let kids' arms rest anymore. I subscribe to the theory that the epicondyles have to be fully mature before they can take a beating like that.

          • double

            Thank you for your comments. Indeed we may have reached an accord.
            My son always takes winters off. I agree that too much throwing is ridiculous. What's the hurry, right? We use the Alan Jaeger arm conditioning program(surgical tubing and long-toss regimen).

          • docjohndenver

            yeah, once last year I watched a Rockies pitcher in super slow motion and I thought, "Man, that is not a normal motion for the human elbow" (especially on curveballs). So, I'm like, give these kids some time off and show them how to get movement with other pitches, like circle changes and the like. I really felt bad for one kid. I think he is done, at least for this coming summer. It's why I tell every kid, "get an academic scholarship, too". The brain can't get tendonitis. If the sports ride comes through great. If not, plan B is an academic scholarship. And, of course, some get a little of both that adds up.

          • double

            We've made an agreement that academics definitely come first. I've found, for an example, that having him skip the fall league really gives him a strong start to the school year. He has more time for homework and is generally more relaxed.

          • djs

            I don't know if the Obamas are a good and decent first family. Let's face it none of us know who they really are. Kind of reminds me of that movie "They Live" with Roddy Piper. These politicians are packaged very well. Their appearance is nothing more than an expensive marketing campaign. As far as I'm concerned all of these guys have been bought out. Think about it. Has Joe Schmo ever been a serious contender in any political race. This country needs Joe Schmo and not Joe the plumber. Someone with real moral values to help this nation to return to greatness.

          • docjohndenver

            djs, I was just saying that the Obamas have stayed married and by all accounts have good kids. With the stress that the first family is under I find that impressive. And by now, if there were real tensions in the family I think some of that would have come out. Double asked what I admire about Obama and that is one of the main things. As a family doctor who heard about 500 teenagers laugh to me that "oral sex isn't really sex. Just ask the president", I actually appreciate the family unit that is portrayed here. I would hear these jokes and then treat their oral herpes, their pharyngeal gonococci, etc. The family portrayed in the White House MATTERS to our youth. Believe it.

          • double

            P.S. I hope that your recovery is going well.

          • docjohndenver

            double, I almost went to med school in Atlanta. Was just a little too far from my wife's home. Loved it there, though. Nicest people of any place I interviewed which made it very tempting. I agree that, although I enjoy the juice that a Tiger charge brings, he does seem to bring some negative energy to the fore sometimes. He has turned out to be a much more likeable golfer than as a person which has been disappointing at times. I guess the real person eventually comes out no matter how many people you have doing publicity for you, right?

          • doublecrossed

            So true. Speaking of public relations and dispelling the myth that us lefties worship Obama, go check out Huffington Post's lead story about the jobs act Obama just signed. They are running Matt Taibbi's piece that totally shreds Obama.

          • docjohndenver

            doublemint twins (if you're old enough to remember you know the smoking hot twins that were on the original commercial):
            What is happening is what happened at the end of Bush's second term for conservatives. They began to see his shortcomings, and the mismatch of war rhetoric and war reality in Iraq. What the Left is seeing is the mismatch between Obama's hope and change rhetoric and 30-40% unemployment in many poor communities. Government-centric economies do not work on the level that America is used to. The middle class in Europe is lower class here economically. Capitalism is a terrible system. It's just better than all the rest. (I think somebody famous said that once). And Obama's stimulus package simply did not work. Now that it is abundantly obvious to average joes like me, the Left cannot completely ignore the reality.

          • doubledealin

            You seem to have forgotten any right-wing obstruction that has played a huge role in our troubles. Strange omission from a thinking man.

          • docjohndenver

            double, right wing obstruction with the president, the senate, and the house to start Mr. Obama's administration? Really? I am a thinking man, but President Obama started with carte blanche. He lost ONE house with his poor performance of the first two years. Sorry. A one trillion dollar stimulus that failed, a healthcare boondoggle that personally I wish worked but doesn't, and an entire term of 8-9 percent unemployment? Nope. It's primarily on him. He has gotten virtually every major thing he's wanted. And it simply has not worked. And believe me, I wish it had. I have a business. It is affected by the economy. Increased paperwork and regulation in medicine DIRECTLY affects me all day every day. His ideas have simply failed. It may hurt to hear it, but it's true. At the end of a four year term, blaming the other side just doesn't cut it.

  • Robert

    Can't weigh in on the "Black Pride" thing. I understand what you are getting at though. To me its more of a "Father to son" thing. Your son should be better than you. Race has zero to do with it I think.

    I do notice that your fan club (those who call you names without substance) have become increasingly aggressive toward you. That means you are doing something right..

    Pre-emptive strike: Since I'm a white guy who admires your views, the enslaved folks who are upset with you will use my comments as proof you are not black enough. Colin Powell? Well, I admired his military career, would have followed that guy through hell with a gas can. Would do the same with Allen West now. Along with Swartzkopf… Condi Rice, Clarence Thomas, And a few others have placed race on the back burner and for it have become successes and scorned by those who refuse to do so… Sad aint it.

    • double

      What's sad is righty blindness to the harm Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas have done to this country as lackeys for their rich, white masters. At least Colin Powell came through and turned out to be an exceptional human being.

      • docjohndenver

        double, when you go after two obviously impressive people (no matter which side you are on) it just robs you of all credibility. I cannot think of anyone I disagree with more than Alan Dershowitz, but I would not say he is a lackey for his leftist Ivy League masters. It just makes you sound closedminded and, frankly, like a hateful person. I don't get it. What do you intend to get out of comments like those? Is it some sort of angry venting at other successful black people? What? Surely you don't think anyone will be swayed to your side acting like a complete reprobate? Do you know the story of Condoleeza Rice? No matter what you think of her political leanings, hers is a wonderful American story.

        • double

          These people are sell-out hacks. Please direct me to your comments where you have recognized Obama's tremendous achievement.

          • ant

            And there you have it. The reason Kevin started this blog…to the blind, to be black and conservative is to be a 'sell-out', an 'Uncle Tom', right? Don't dare turn away from the 'black herd' mentality. Clarify. What is it that makes them 'sell-outs'? Success, belief in the Constitution, the rule of law, the American experiment, that they are NOT community agitators, or Nike spokesmen, or race-baiters…what is it? You won't answer, I know, because you don't know…you just spout out whatever leftist trope you been fed without actually thinking about it. If you thought, you wouldn't be a libtard.

          • joeclyde

            When a Black conservative actually calls out racist idiots on the right. Then he wouldn't be called a sellout.

            But when he/she goes out of their way to ignore it. While constantly chastising Black people (for the entertainment of Bigots on the Right). Then he/she deserves every single bit of criticism.

          • Yngblkcons

            —–
            On calling liberal blacks slaves (4 years ago)
            http://intensedebate.com/people/Yngblkcons/179

            Accusing blacks who aren't conservative of being of being on a plantation is as unfair, inacurrate and inflammatory as calling conservative blacks 'Uncle Toms'.

            —
            In defense of Machete (the film) two years ago
            http://intensedebate.com/people/Yngblkcons/169

            Looks like a Hispanic version of a Blaxspoitation film to me. I won't be deeply shocked if it fails commercially and I don't blame people for not wanting to see it, but calling it a call to arms for hispanics is silly.

            —–
            I could go on. Suffice to say, I've criticized Allen West, Herman Cain, Limbaugh, Beck, Breitbart, Dr. Laura and even Kevin Johnson for some of the stuff they've said about blacks. Generally speaking I don't run around calling people racist (that's an insult which tends to end civil debate) but I do call them out for insults and inaccuracies.

          • Yngblkcons

            Its worth noting I also call out liberals for unfair attacks on conservative blacks or even liberal blacks who just don't do what they want (nods towards Maher's talk about Obama not acting gangster enough).

            The thing is most intensely political people tend to give people who believe as they do a pass for behaviour they would otherwise criticize.

          • Linky Drake

            What was Obama's tremendous achevement?

            Being elected President or being born with black skin?

            It may be a wonderful acheivement to be elected President, since only 44 men have accomplished this; but it's no great achievement to be born with dark skin; billions of people have done as much.

            Why would anyone take credit for their physical appearance?

            They had nothing to do with it, just like they had nothing to do with where they were born or who they were born to.

            As far as the election of 2008 is concerned, Obama would not have been elected if a significant percentage of white voters hadn't voted for him; the black vote alone, even if it had been 100 percent, wouldn't have gotten him elected.

        • double

          Condi Rice is a war criminal and Clarence Thomas is a brain-dead lump of shit.

    • double

      P.S. Attaboy, Bob.

    • djs

      There's a side of me that agrees with doublelimpcock, but in the interest of humanity as a whole we have to find common ground to keep these psychotic liberals from running us all into the ground.

    • Yngblkcons

      Robert said:

      And a few others have placed race on the back burner and for it have become successes and scorned by those who refuse to do so
      —-
      You must be joking. Allen 'Harriet Tubman' West plays the race card all the time.

      *Sighs* You are a Republican/conservative who likes the people you named because they are all Republicans/conservatives. Why not just leave it at that?

      Both sides love to talk about how the other side is all about sexism, racism and what have you, but in fact for most people idealogy is paramount.

  • double

    P.S P.S. Happy thoughts, doc, happy thoughts!

    • djs

      Hey doubledipshit that photo of Kevin on his website what does it make you think of? How about In Living Color Men On Film. He definitely needs a more masculine look. I hope that's not the look of the conservative movement. I'm open to a lot of things, but looking like David Alan Queer is not one of them.

      • docjohndenver

        DJS, this is the second recent post you have made regarding manly men, if you know what I mean. Are you dealing with some inner things? It's okay, buddy. No judgment on this site. Conservatives believe what happens in the bedroom stays in the bedroom. Vegas rules so don't be afraid to be who you are. LOL. Just kidding. Was there anything better than In Living Colour? Seriously, the fire marshall Bill stuff killed me as did Homie the Clown. Must have been ten actors who got their start on that show. The first group of SNL players was like that, too.

        • djs

          I take it you don't agree, fine then I'll keep my thoughts to myself. I guess GW is taking a break to catch up on a Meryl Streep movie marathon or something.

          • docjohndenver

            djs, a Meryl Streep movie marathon? Oh My GOD! I would choose to be sentenced to life in front of a firing squad first. A Lethal Weapon 1-4 marathon?. Well, okay then.

    • docjohndenver

      double, I give Mr. Obama credit for his senatorial election and successful election as president, for his giving the order on killing bin Laden, and on his obvious success with a wonderful family. Are there other great accomplishments that I am unaware of? The stimulus was an unmitigated disaster. He said himself if unemployment remained above eight percent he would be a one termer. I actually am easy on Obama compared to what you say about conservatives. He has done some very questionable things in the middle East which I think you would be claiming were unlawful if Bush had done them, but I do not call him a war criminal. As far as I know he did not run a successful business, has never served in the armed forces, did not complete a single term as senator and voted "present" whenever something controversial came up. I have no idea what his performance in college/law school was as it has not been widely spoken of to say the least. He was a law professor apparently, but seems to have no idea what the Supreme Court does. I am unimpressed with him, but I do not villify him which is the difference between the conservative approach and the progressive approach to debate (or at least me and you specifically).

      • double

        Fair enough. Possibly in the spirit of your genius friend, you rise above the rabble on this blog to recognize, at a bare minimum, the obvious accomplishments of the good man that is our president. His wonderful family being chief among his accomplishments.

        • docjohndenver

          Yes, I will definitely give him that. I cannot imagine how hard it is to remain a stable family unit as president and first lady. I just can't go there in my mind. You can't go out on the back lawn without a news camera. You certainly can't scold your kids in public. You can't do anything without the world watching. Actually I give a lot of props to anybody who would raise kids and be president at the same time. And, at least for what we can see, the Obamas seem to be doing a great job.

          • Meshuggahboy

            You're being overly-generous, Doc. When you have twenty-two assistants and spend taxpayer money on vacations every few weeks, then raising a couple kids should be pretty easy.

          • docjohndenver

            Mesh, a good point and yet I think raising a family in that environment would be a difficult task, anyway. Never having any real privacy has got to be hard, man.

        • ant

          Okay, so let me get this straight….Kevin Jackson is somehow part of the evil cabal that has hi-jacked the economic system, taking us off the gold standard, caused the premature deaths of those American leaders that resisted 'global' bankers' 'system of debt' for the free world….but Obama is not. Doc is to polite to you..I, on the other hand, am not…you, sir, are an ignoramus… the level of a dog that barks up the tree that the squirrel did NOT run up into. If you are going to be a conspiratorialist, at least be consistent..don't give obvious Marxist morons, who got by on the string pulling of puppet-masters, a pass just because they are liberal negroes, hypocrit a**hole.

          • docjohndenver

            ant, I am just trying to be polite because I think it helps to lower the vitriol. Believe me, this whole "the world is run by a few rich globalists" thing is absurd to me. It gives an out to any leftist whose ideas fail (which we know is all of them. There are no thriving leftist economies, are there?) And, please, don't anyone bring up Germany. Go to Germany. Their idea of middle class is very different from ours. And economically they are still pretty capitalist in their approach despite a burgeoning welfare state. I keep thinking I will get people to recognize that statism kills commerce, but it just doesn't seem to be happening. Maybe I should just play the guitar when I need to escape for a few minutes, huh?

          • Meshuggahboy

            Hey Doc, if you're into jazz at all – check out Allan Holdsworth. I was lucky enough to see him in Detroit a week ago, and he's an absolute god.

          • docjohndenver

            Mesh, Allan Holdsworth happens to be one of my top three. To say the least, I am jealous you got to see him live. Eddie Van Halen was once asked: "What is it like being the greatest guitarist of all time?" And he replied, "I don't know. Go ask Holdsworth." He IS A tone GOD!

          • djs

            Hey Doc it's a well known fact that 1% of the population controls 99% of the worlds wealth. The world is run by a few filthy rich globalists. Do a little research on the Rothschild clan and it might shed a little light on these psychotic maniacs. Who do you think Prescott Bush worked for? (He was convicted of treason) Who do you think financed Adolph Hitler? The same maniacs that will have a sitting president assassinated to gain or keep control of this nations currency. Doc if you believe these are conspiracy theories then why did your forefathers warn against these bankers taking control of this nations currency. Why didn't Lyndon Johnson sign the bill for America to print its own currency when JFK was assassinated? The bill was on his desk ready to be signed. If you do a little research you will find its mathematically impossible for this country to repay the debt owed to the Federal Reserve.

          • docjohndenver

            djs, no doubt we can't pay down all the debt. But we still have the ability to not become Greece. I have read about all that. But it really doesn't affect the day to day operations of my business, you know?

          • double

            We need to hug it out, ant…

  • ant

    Thank you double and djs and other lefties that grace us with their inane opinions, insults, dementia and obscenities. Thank you for reminding me and solidifying my convictions on being conservative.

    • docjohndenver

      ant, it is interesting that the vast majority of the obscenities come from the left, isn't it? And yet we hear non-stop about how THEY are the ones that care about our youth. But not enough to realize that the youth that emulate these vulgarities have less chance to get a good job and keep it, have less chance to impress their teachers and professors, etc. The great thing about being a leftist is that your ideology is above reproach so your individual actions are impervious to critique. When you can "change the world" why worry about your little corner of it, right?

    • doubleindemnity

      And here I thought that I was close to flipping you, ant. Dang it!

      • ant

        Flipping? You're not in prison anymore….or are you?

    • djs

      Actually ant I'm ambidextrous.

      • docjohndenver

        djs, I have no idea what this comment means but it was kind of funny anyway. Wierd, huh?

        • ant

          It means he automatically votes for anyone with the 'D..I'm another liberal Democrat moron' with either left or right hand, regardless of knowing or researching what kind of destructive tool idiot he's actually electing into office in perpetuity.

          • docjohndenver

            ant, the extraordinary thing to me is that ANYONE who has a business could vote liberal. In twenty years of owning my own business, I have yet to come across one single thing the government has done to actually help me. Paying things like "occupational privilege tax"? What the heck is that? I just wrote a check for it. After all the other taxes, I pay a tax for the right to breathe the air in Aurora, CO? Bizarre, right? I got dinged the other day because nobody had written the daily temperature down in our refrigerator in the office. I explained in a letter that the bureaucrat had checked the wrong refrigerator. We have one that holds our lunches and one that holds meds. But it looks like the ding will stay on our record. If it was happening to someone else, it would sound funny.

          • djs

            Hey Doc I'm with you there. Small business owners across this country are being raked over the coal with all of these damn taxes. It sickens me because the heartbeat of this country lies in the ability of the small business owners to grow and hire more employees. Well that's kind of difficult when we're being stifled with these taxes. We have to take our country back from these a holes. Whether they're Democratic or Republican we can't continue to sit back while they tax us into our graves.

  • Robert

    Hey ant, I'm not sure but djs seems to have potential… Double on the other hand is over the cliff without a bungee..

    We gotta keep hammering, the truth is there, all you have to do is sift away the talking points to find it. Keep up the fight we're winning it.

    • doubledate

      Just glad to see you found the most recent post, Bob. Good on ya!

    • docjohndenver

      Robert, djs is a conservative. Just listen to what he says about hiring in a business. He just hasn't fully admitted it yet. It's a hard step. When I was in residency I was a flaming liberal. And then over twenty years I realized that giving my patients more money was not helping them at all. djs is there. But it's a hard transition, if for no other reason than it often leaves you out there on an island among your friends and family. Double on the other hand, no chance.

  • Yngblkcons

    Kevin Jackson appears to be making the standard mistake political activists of all stripes tend to make: giving too much credit/blame to the politicians.

    The simple fact of the matter is adults are responsible for their own decisions. I've known people that have made poor decisions that ruined (or ended) their lives, and in every case, they were the ones responsible for those decisions.

    Do white people or Asian people or Jewish people blame/credit their leadership for the general state of their group? Not to my knowledge. Why do some commentators (black and white, conservative and liberal) refuse to give blacks the same responsibility?

    Black leadership was important when the political system was a boot on our necks and collective action was needed to remove it. But for decades, we've had equality, so now the quality (and quantity) of our lives rests on individuals' decisions.

    • doublemint

      Good points. Fairly unassailable.

    • docjohndenver

      YBC, This is one of the best posts I have ever read. I have never really thought about it in comparison to other ethnic groups. Bravo, sir.

    • Guest woman

      I judge a man/woman on their "character" and actions. Words are really cheap… I, personally, have to "see" the actions to determine my decision. Albeit, I do have "ideals". For instance, I do judge… in order to make my own opinion about "them". I'm not to taken with; butt cracks, or unintelligible speakers, ear assualting stereo systems, overly made up women with big boobs, large houses, "hollywood" anything, people who can only talk with about 30 "F" words in one sentence and the list goes on. But hey !

      • double

        Your gibberish may be early warning of a stroke, or mini-stroke, GW. Please seek medical attention right away!

        • Guest woman

          I don't need medical attention, however I see you may need some. That hate and vitriol is eating you up from the inside out.

      • docjohndenver

        Guest woman, I will give you this: the constant absurd use of profanity from the left gets tiresome after a while. It is as if the mark of an intellectual now is to use four letter words. No need for intelligent argument, descriptive speech or writing; just throw in a few F bombs and you are cool. We used to call people that acted this way to be cool "fifth graders". Now we call them the "intelligentsia". Weird.

  • Guest woman

    Yep Doc……….. I'm going to quit reading here for a while. Since I have the freedom of choice, I don't have to submit myself to all this CRAP. Oops… I used a bad word.

    • doubledose

      By all means, GW, take a break. You have suffered mightily from marauding lefties bent on gumming up the works here at teabagger alley.

      • ant

        I did not know marauding was defined as 'infantile, fact challenged insults'. Sort of like the French men in 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail'….kinda makes me rethink that whole Viking thing. Go away, or I shall taunt you a second time.

        • doubledealin

          Well now ya know!

    • doubleDs

      I may join you in taking a sabbatical, as I simply must wean myself off of "…overly made up women with big boobs…". They can be terribly exhausting…

      • ant

        Pelosi's breast-feeding you? That makes sense…I'd be nervous she'd try to eat my head in the process though. You know those insects….completely unpredictable..

        • doubledealin

          Good 'ol ant.

    • docjohndenver

      Guest woman, it would be a shame for you to leave for a while. I would have to say that you are one of the people who always gets me to think. But there are times when the negativity and coarseness are bothersome. Part of it is the anonymity of the internet. One of the reasons I use the moniker "docjohndenver" is because it is not really anonymous. It's my name, occupation, and place of residence. I wanted it to make me think before I post, but obviously many of my more rough responses to people still do not follow the social mores that they would if we were face to face. Anyway, have a great week. I think you have a lot to offer to us. I mean, this is sort of a little dysfunctional community in its own way. I missed it when I was gone for a while.

      • Guest woman

        http://boingboing.net/2012/04/09/9-year-olds-diy-… go watch this Doc… it just goes to show that NICE things do happen.

        • docjohndenver

          Guest woman, that was AWESOME! Man, you talk about making lemonade out of lemons. That kid may be the most darling little tyke I have ever seen. Thanks. Everybody should see that. That young man will do something great, with that kind of motivation and imagination and cheerful outlook.

  • double

    This is so Rethuglican. But it proves we are still a nation of laws and justice. Joe Arpaio is next.

    The three-member panel voted unanimously to disbar Andrew Thomas, the former Maricopa County attorney, and his former top deputy, Lisa Aubuchon. Thomas was elected in 2004 and resigned in 2010 during his second term to pursue an unsuccessful run for Arizona attorney general.

    "This is the story of the public trust dishonored, desecrated and defiled," the ethics panel said.

  • joeclyde

    It's hilarious to say that Black conservatives don't put one race about the other. But these same guys NEVER seem to find anything wrong with White Conservatives and everything wrong with Black people.

    As I said before. Obama is literally a Black conservative stimulus plan. White Conservative Guilt makes Black Conservatives money.

    Get your money player. How black is that?

    • Yngblkcons

      While its tricky to speak in the aggregate, generally speaking, black conservatives don't 'put one race above the other'. The reason black conservatives find themselves more in agreement with white conservatives than most other (mostly liberal) blacks has nothing to do with race and everything to do with idealogy.

      • docjohndenver

        (Announcer voice):" Down goes joeclyde. Down goes joeclyde. " YBC declared undisputed champion of this exchange.

      • joeclyde

        You keep believing that.

        • docjohndenver

          OK

  • djs

    Are you saying you're in agreement with womanizing Newt and pill popping Rush?

    • Yngblkcons

      Depends on the issue.

  • djs

    Do you give the same benefit of the doubt to the southpaws? Or are you never in agreement with a "Lefty".

    • Yngblkcons

      I've been in agreement with lefties on some issues. For example, Bill Cosby's Pound Cake speech is a lot more convincing to me that the conspiracy theories most people (conservative and liberal) offer.

      I don't disrespect or dislike people merely because they believe differently than I do so if they come to the same place, even if its from a different starting point, that's great.

    • docjohndenver

      djs, lefties with good curveballs are great in the late innings. They give managers options, although I have never liked the double switch. I have no idea who you are talking to here, but there are left-leaning arguments that I agree with on occasion. I used to agree with virtually all of them until I spent two decades seeing the destruction that big government has done to the inner city and the poor family. Handouts reduce motivation, government programs make the father largely obsolete in the inner city. I would be for many of the social programs if they had real time limits. Welfare "reform" hasn't really changed anything that I can see. Put a different acronym up, a different sector of the nanny state and it just goes on in perpetuity. But I watch young women have babies and live downtrodden lives that are just sort of perpetually gray. There is no motivation to get out and no man to be a team with and grow with. And it pretty much all tracks directly back to the exponential growth of the great society. (as well as the loss of a moral compass that occurred when the baby boomers still had flowers in their hair)

      • double

        People with flowers in their hair watched as the moral compass was stomped into smithereens by Nixon and his thugs.

        • docjohndenver

          double, wrong. This is the difference between conservatives and liberals. A liberal believes the nation's moral compass in the collective sense. Mr. Nixon, the reprobate that he was, had nothing to do with free love, drug abuse, and the disollution of family traditional mores and roles as "antiquated". Those are personal, individual decisions. And each of those people that gave in to whatever-feels-good-now did it in their own mind and consciousness. A person's moral compass cannot be stomped on by someone else. When I said it in a collective sense there, I meant thousands of similarly bad individual decisions. Nixon had nothing to do with that. When kids would come into my office in the nineties with oral herpetic lesions and pharyngeal gonococci they would try to blame it on Clinton (happened dozens of timesover about a five year period). I never let them get away with it. Another person's moral failures can NEVER be the cause of your own. But this is the primary schism between liberalism and conservatism. It is individual vs. collective.

          • double

            Another difference is that conservatives seem to downplay the horrors of war and murder and colossal thievery, and instead are deeply offended by alternative lifestyles and wanton sexuality.

          • docjohndenver

            double, yeah okay don't know where you got that. The libertarian conservatives have been screaming about the wars that Bush and now Obama have perpetrated for a decade. Anyway, I couldn't care less what people do sexually and most conservatives agree. I'll tell you what: if the left stops blaming all their problems on others, we'll never talk about sex. How's that? Yeah, somehow I doubt the left will give up what they consider their trump card. Yo didn't refute what I said because you know it's true. Nixon didn't make kids drop acid, screw everyone nearby and give up on the traditional family roles and mores. You know it and I know it and everyone reading this knows it. We all make our own choices.

          • double

            I don't need to refute what you said. Say whatever you want. I grew up in that time. I know what happened. I'm glad those kids were dropping acid and screwing everyone nearby. They were too busy doing that to be off some where slaughtering a primitive agrarian society that had never done us any harm.

          • docjohndenver

            Ah yes, the viet nam war. Another Democratic masterpiece. And, uh, you may have felt differently about leaving them to be slaughtered in the killing fields if you were a Mung from Cambodia. That Pol Pot turned out to be a really bad guy. But that's another story. The bottom line is a person can't blame their bad decisions on someone else, the president or otherwise. You are deflecting the subject because you know it's true. You made a rash statement excusing the beginning of our country's moral decline in the sixties because of Nixon. And, like most blanket rash statements, it was completely false. But I make those kind of mistakes all the time. We all do. There simply is no excuse for one's actions other than their personal decision making. There are no fall guys for our own screwups.

          • doobiedoobiedo

            I am not deflecting anything. Here is what you wrote:

            And it pretty much all tracks directly back to the exponential growth of the great society. (as well as the loss of a moral compass that occurred when the baby boomers still had flowers in their hair)

            You are speaking of FDR's Great Society and I am asserting that the country began it's slide into the current moral shitter beginning with Nixon's stupendous immorality and lawbreaking. And, I suppose, in that respect we could point to Nixon's individual choices. You, on the other hand, want to blame it on a bunch of harmless hippies. Typical conservative small mindedness vs. progressive liberal big picture thinking (which is what FDR was doing, thank God). The distinction is clear.

          • docjohndenver

            double, if you think the me-me-me first approach of the baby boomers (aka hippies that are now capitalists) is less to blame for our moral decline than NIXON we will have to agree to disagree. I don't even think most far left authors and pundits would say that. But you are right about one thing. Leftists constantly look at their utopian fantasy big picture which absolves them from their individual choices. And if you think the Great Society followed by the drug culture of the sixties has been good for the poor (and especially the black family unit) you are just completely ignorant of the facts. I can tell you that the neighborhoods that feed into my office are virtually devoid of nuclear families and father figures. Going out on a limb here, but I am going to bet that in about 1960 that was not the case. I seriously cannot believe you think the hippie culture was "harmless". But that's what's great about this country: I have the right to think what I think, and you have the right to be wrong. ;) . (That was just a joke, by the way)

          • doubledoobie

            When I reference Nixon, I am talking about the beginning of the truly nasty amoral but moralistic right-wing/Rethug/kill everybody that is different from us, especially those with dark skin and funny accents/Tea Party movement. And while you trace the immorality from FDR to hippies/drugs/baby boomer capitalists, I am suggesting that there is a much more virulent strain that can be traced from, actually, McCarthy/Nixon to Nixon to Reagan/Bush/right-wing/Federalist Society/ALEC/Rethug/Tea Party movement.
            I don't believe that I postulated anything about what has been good, or not good for that matter, for the poor and black family unit.
            Again, because of your conservative blind spot, you fail to indict the government (CIA, Congress, special interests' connections in foreign countries, drug money, etc.) in your round up of those responsible for moral decline through drugs. I will match my broad view of history and the resulting pressures on American families against yours any day of the week. Your claims of my Utopian view can't negate your obviously narrow viewpoint.
            However, I agree with you about agreeing to disagree.

          • docjohndenver

            Uh, out of the top 100 problems with the moral compass of this country, the CIA doesn't make the list. Most people (including myself) have no direct contact with spooks. Give me a break. And I understand you parsing your original statement to make it more palatable and a little less ridiculous, but here is what you actually said: "People with flowers in their hair watched as their moral compass was stomped into smithereens by Nixon and his thugs." I think that is fairly self-explanatory. I have no conservative "blind spot" . I just have a very different broad world view. I see a need to go back to personal responsibility while you see the government as an arbiter of goods and services to replace what has been lost. Yours represents a utopian vision that has been tried and failed multiple times in the last century and mine is, quite frankly given our present administration, a probably a pipe dream. But this whole "small minds" thing is tired and old.

          • doubleduped

            It's easy enough to copy and paste what I wrote. And what I wrote was "the moral compass", not "their moral compass". Obviously I was referring to the moral compass of our country, which, moral compass-wise, is a pretty important consideration.
            Perhaps you are not familiar with The School of the Americas, the CIA training ground for exported murder and mayhem. Just keep your head in the sand, doc. The North Koreans seem to be blissed out in much the same way. Hey, perhaps you could sponsor giant bronzes of the Bush dynasty.

          • docjohndenver

            ah yes, the "collective" moral compass. Once again the liberal approach is to make everything collective. If you are really Herman, Uncle Zhivago, peaches, etc. you have read enough of my posts to know I would not buy a Bush bobblehead doll so the above post is just another example of the left being called on their own comments, having no argument to refute the fact that you blamed an expresident for millions of individual bad decisions. But like I said before we all post things without thinking them through. You and I both know that the breakdown of the family unit, the immorality sexually and with substances is not due to the CIA or Nixon. That sounds like some black helicopter goofy stuff, double. You're better than that.

          • doubledribbler

            Read my comments again. You will not find an instance where I "…blamed an expresident for millions of individual bad decisions…". Typical conservo straw man overreach to make a point. You are basically arguing with yourself. I'll copy and paste again(since it's so easy):

            People with flowers in their hair watched as the moral compass was stomped into smithereens by Nixon and his thugs.

            And here I will stand by my assertion that Nixon blackened the country's soul. And I will stand by my assertion that he and his thuggish entourage spawned the virulent strain of conservatism that this country suffers under now. If there is any relationship between Nixon and the hippies, it is that he broke their hearts with the lawless cruelty that he perpetuated. Also, maybe not so coincidentally, he apparently harbored at least as much disdain for them as you do.

          • doubledribble

            P.S. Perhaps you're just jealous of the vivid imagery of the sentence.

          • docjohndenver

            double, read your comment several times. You do not think the hippie culture hurt our values and you do think Nixon and the CIA did. That puts you outside the bell curve on the left edge. It's okay, but you said what you said.

          • unclezhivago

            Exactly. I said what I said, and it is in writing. I actually made no comment on whether or not the hippie culture hurt "our values". If you must know, I think that the hippie culture AND Nixon/CIA can be seen as variations of our values. With Nixon/CIA being the uglier side. I see a problem with the conservative's narrow definition of what "our values" are.

          • docjohndenver

            unclezhivagopeachesherbherman,
            Actually, "our values" are quite easy to understand. They are well laid out in our declaration and bill of rights. (further elaboration deeper into the Constitution and Federalist papers). Nixon was a blip on the radar, the first ugly politician that got caught in the modern media. The hippie culture is pervasive: free sex, drugs, do it if it feels good, rationalize by giving the needy government handouts, the whole shebang. As basically a libertarian I would be willing to bet that my definition of our values is at least as open and tolerant of yours. For instance, I would never blame my own decisions or problems on someone else. That is actually the "narrow" cop-out approach (BTW, I am not accusing you of that just our culture in general). Have a good week unclehermandoublepeaches.

      • Yngblkcons

        There are places with no welfare systems (Guatemala, Pakistan, Jamaica) but very low rates of social mobility and there are places with high social mobility (higher even than the US) with lavish welfare systems.

        Within countries, poverty clings more to some groups than others (nods towards blacks in America). So in the context of multigernerational poverty in the US, its my belief that while welfare systems do matter, there are a lot of other factors at play (culture, the educational system, etc).
        http://www.forbes.com/sites/daveserchuk/2011/12/0…
        http://www.economist.com/node/15908469

        • djs

          Actually Yngblkcons by far there are more poor white people in this country than blacks. There are also many more white people on welfare than blacks. These white people get seperated into some sub units i.e. poor white trash, trailer park trash, rednecks, and hillbillies. The statement that poverty clings towards blacks in America is a false misconception and somewhat racist. America is very unique, poverty clings to whoever doesn't use the opportunity to educate themselves and take advantage of the social mobility you speak of. People grow up in certain situations and make excuses why they can't change their reality for the better. You take a look around this country and poverty has no race or color attached to it.

          • Yngblkcons

            What I stated was unpleasant but true. What you said is also true and it doesn't contradict what I said.
            http://loop21.com/politics/US-census-african-amer…

          • docjohndenver

            djs you're both right. There are, of course, in sheer numbers many more poor white people in this country than blacks. On the other hand it is not "racist" to say poverty has clung more to the black community when taken as a percentage there is a much higher unemployment rate and higher likelihood of out-of-wedlock births, etc. in the black community. In fact, I agree with you both. YBC has made an excellent point, however, that poverty is multifactorial. Otherwise how do you ascribe the disparities he described. The welfare state in this country has DEFINITELY hurt poor people, particularly people in minority neighborhoods. To dispute this is absurd. It however is not the cause of their poverty. That is much more linked to the dissolution of the family and our young men losing their moral way. Why take care of your kids when the government will, right? P.S. It's official, djs, you're a full blown conservative with this last post. "People make excuses why they can't change…." Beautiful, baby. Welcome to the vast right wing conspiracy.

          • docjohndenver

            And, incidentally, djs, you did well here, but I warn you: tangle with YBC at your own risk. As my three year old next door neighbor would say: "He smart". (But he is also very respectful and even when he has crushed me in previous threads he never danced in the endzone)

          • Yngblkcons

            In fairness, I don't recall ever 'crushing' anyone. I just offer my opinion and try to support it with facts.

            I don't think most young men and women have sex and think 'no worries, the government will take care of the kids' I think they have sex and don't think beyond the moment (on a related note, a high out of wedlock birth rate is often tied to a high abortion rate).

            Also, as you have pointed out in various threads there are often some rather painful (sometimes lethal) costs to unprotected sex which would keep a prudent person from having it with random strangers beyond babies.

          • docjohndenver

            YBC, sorry about saying "crushed". I was trying to actually pay you a compliment. You are always respectful. I really didn't mean it the way I guess it came out. You are just always knowledgeable. Anyway, although I basically agree with you on the kids have sex because they are not thinking ahead, I have seen and heard many instances of young women having their third or fourth baby and not really even thinking the man SHOULD be all that involved. There is an ingrained approach within the welfare mindset that if you have several kids the government will take care of you. And of course it's true. I have not at all been successful in convincing young people to stay away from casual sex in order to avoid disease. It seems to be something they see as happening to someone else. I have even in certain instances had trouble convincing them their diseases are due to sex. Incredible, I know. But true nonetheless.

          • Yngblkcons

            I understood it was a compliment, but I don't think debates should be framed in terms of victory and loss. We're all trying to arrive at the truth, right?

            Anyway, here's a tragic and hilarious demonstration of how little thought some people put into concieving kids.
            http://www.avclub.com/chicago/articles/woman-on-c…

            Chicago-area man sporting a “Red mohawk, black pentagram gauges, [and] viper piercings,” who got busy sans condom in the bathroom of the Aragon a few months ago, congratulations! You’re about to be a dad.

          • docjohndenver

            YBC, well, I am sure of it now after reading that article: the apocalypse is truly upon us. The saddest part of that listing, of course, is that nobody made any mention of the genius of the bass player, Lemmy, for Motorhead. I mean, where's the love for Lemmy? One thing's for sure, if I ever go to a Motorhead concert I'm wearing a hazmat suit.

          • djs

            Ouch. Not to be insensitive, but I equate the term "full blown" with Aids. I quite possibly could be conservative, but not "full blown". How about fully pledged or something other than "full blown". I have wept at times trying to figure out how to remove my black people from the mental prison that has encompassed the last few generations. I have the great fortune of being able to have conversations with my nearly 80 year old Dad. In so many ways black people were much better off in the Jim Crow segregated south. My Dad talks about the many life lessons that were learned growing up in Mississippi in the 1940's. There was no welfare, you worked or you didn't eat. The Social Security Act had just been passed, but people worked, lived, and died just like today.

          • Yngblkcons

            My mother grew up in NYC, but my 70something father (72 or 73, I forget) grew up in Virginia and from his perspective is Jim Crow was terrible.

            He doesn't like talking about those times or discussing them or watching movies about them because they piss him off, but one time at a family reunion he talked with some other older family members about a childhood friend whose elevator didn't go all the way to the top refused to cede a basketball court to some white guys that wanted to play. One of them went back to his vehicle, got a shotgun and shot the guy dead. Then my father and his friends stood around for a while while the police laughed over the corpse with the shooter before telling them to go on their way.

            His perspective is that most young black people don't know how good they have it and that most of them are blowing the unprecedented opportunities being afforded to them. My grandparents (both sets) were poor but most of their descendents are at least middle class (some of us are rich, though sad to say, I'm not).

            My father's a dyed in the wool Democrat (we've agreed to stop talking politics) but he shares my belief that too many of us are our own worst enemy.

          • docjohndenver

            djs, we just don't really say "full blown AIDS" anymore in medicine. That sort of went out as the protease inhibitor meds became widely available. It is usually about T4 counts and opportunistic infections now. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to offend. Just hadn't really heard that phrase in a while, even from my HIV patients. Yeah, you are kind of on the front lines of the whole movement from poverty to the middle class if you are from the old neighborhood, employ poor people who are often black and yet have risen financially to a great extent. On some level, that must be a bit overwhelming emotionally at times. I know when I saw a close friend of mine in the office the other day he looked beaten down and tired of life. Immediately I saw his face as the young, intelligent athletic kid he was when we were in high school. He told me he was down and out. When I asked what had happened he simply said, "John, I never left the old neighborhood." It was sad. If you have to deal with that on a regular basis I can understand the weeping at times.

          • djs

            Blacks were farmers and they had 100's of acres of land to cultivate. They weren't wealthy by any means, but they were self-sufficient not asking or wanting a handout. My father took his 8th grade education and my mother and moved up north in the 1950's looking for a better life. It wasn't a picnic but they were able to forge a decent standard of living for themselves and 7 children. I being the youngest had it better than the other 6 economically speaking. I was deemed "hood rich" by my friends. I guess what I'm trying to say is the stigma of blacks being viewed as welfare recipients, drug dealers, 9 babies out of wedlock having, no job having, bad credit having, pimps and whores is very offensive to those blacks who have forged a brighter future.

          • Yngblkcons

            Most blacks in the South had large families (my father had 11 siblings, counting the two that were stillborn) but many didn't have large farms (sharecropping small plots was common and sharecropping was a trap, which was why many blacks headed North).

            Also, there is a difference between discussing the problems of a group and disrespecting the group or thinking that problem is shared by all members of a group.

            Let me be clear in saying I don't view poverty (or wealth) as a reflection of one's morality (or lack thereof) or willingness to work hard. The working poor work just as hard as anyone. There is a lot of social dysfuction among people who aren't poor (lots of middle class and rich people bed hop and abuse drugs and what have you) and there is government largess for people at all levels of income.

          • docjohndenver

            YBC, I agree with poverty being completely separate from morality in the first generation. By successive generations, however, in my patients I have noticed an entitled attitude among many and a dissolution of traditional morals and values. Obviously this isn't always the case, but it is a large amount of the time in second and third generation welfare recipients. There may be government "largesse" for all levels, but I haven't received a government check or free healthcare in my adult lifetime, unless you count tax returns. Obviously, values and morals can be lost at all levels of income, but a child brought up in a house without a father and with nobody working is statistically much less likely to work hard and manage to have a nuclear family later. My entire approach to teaching my kids a work ethic was for me and my wife to SHOW them how to work. How can that happen if nobody in the house has ever had a full time job? Incidentally, I am obviously not referring to the "working poor". They don't work just as hard as anyone else; generally they work harder. And, to be clear, I agree that there is a lot of social dysfunction at all levels as well. None of this stuff is cut and dried. There is always lots of overlap.

          • Guest woman

            I've picked cotton, hoed the corn, picked up the eggs. My grandfather was one of eleven kids. Back then, you had to "birth" your workforce.
            :)

          • docjohndenver

            Yeah, guest woman, I actually still see a little of the birthed workforce in my patients from the Eastern plains who are farmers. They don't have eight or ten kids, but they do tend to often have 4-6. And every one of them does a significant amount of work around the ranch from an early age. Even if the kids don't come back and ranch full time later, they do seem to have well developed work ethic and close family ties.

          • docjohndenver

            djs, well said. Interestingly enough, anyone who forges a brighter future should be admired and emulated. Honestly, I think your family's story is inspiring. It makes no difference if you are black or white. My dad hitchhiked from inner city cleveland to a small college in Oklahoma because it was the only place he got a good academic scholarship. He grew up extremely poor. He then made sure both of his kids got an education as I have done for mine who are currently in college. But it was our fathers who made the real economic family leap, right? I can remember being with my relatives when I was a kid when we would visit. They were very poor and looked it. I wanted to pound people who would call them trailer and white trash. I can imagine that feeling is ten times worse for a black person given the negative way they have been portrayed in the media and the ongoing destruction of many inner cities. It is sad, and when I read your post it made me think as white people we probably need to be more sensitive to these things at times. My first thought is always, "Hey, its 2012. Who cares what color you are?" But the stigma you are talking about must actually still exist to some degree if you are typing that. I read a book by (I think) Star Parker that said white people need to give blacks however much time they need to deal with those types of hurts, and it sort of woke me up to that a little. As did your post.

          • djs

            Hey Doc we all need to work together so the past hurts are buried. There's nothing to be gained from living in yesteryear. I get caught up doing that far too often to mention. There's so much untapped potential in people, but there are those who I firmly believe wants to drive a wedge between people in this country. Think about it. Religion, Race, Sexual Preference; these are all devisive hot button issues in this country.

          • docjohndenver

            Agreed that these things can be divisive, but they don't have to be. I couldn't care less whether a person is a certain race, religion or sexual preference. I just don't want anybody trying to curtail individual rights. The funny thing is, in the real world (not the t.v. pundits' world or race-baiters') people tend to tolerate one another pretty well in America. At any one time there may be Asia, black, Latino, and often first-generation Russian immigrants in my waiting room. And they laugh and get along great.(partially because I'm always behind and they have to do something to kill the time) But the absurd notion that there is all this division between right and left, black and white, etc. really doesn't play out among normal folks that much. Unfortunately, division is a cottage industry for some.

          • docjohndenver

            djs, I also agree with the "untapped potential" comment. We put too much focus on stuff that doesn't matter. I had a patient who was a great high school basketball player. He was also a brilliant artist. He was well known around this area and people would say, "He's going to play in the NBA", etc. I always found it fascinating that the only thing he ever wanted to talk about or show me was his art. But he was treated as if he were some sort of demi-god for his basketball. It was weird. I wondered if he was getting any real encouragement from friends, family, teachers about what really mattered to him. His "potential" was always talked about around basketball.

          • Guest woman

            Hey Doc we all need to work together so the past hurts are buried. There's nothing to be gained from living in yesteryear.

            Read what you wrote……..again and again and again.

            Do you really mean that ?

          • docjohndenver

            Guest woman, tread lightly with djs right now. This is sort of his time when the (business owner) acorn becomes the (conservative) oak for him. djs, despite his early posts has given us a glimpse into his life. He is a successful business owner who happens to be black, is employing many from his old neighborhood, and understands what makes business tick. He is at risk for being accused of this whole "selling out" nonsense, but can no longer ignore the fact that he gets what runs this economy: individual intellect and effort with a little bit of luck and keep the beaurocracy out. He means it, I think. The interesting thing about this blogging thing is it does tend to reveal ourselves.

  • http://myvoiceonthewingsofchange.blogspot.com/ namaste

    kevin, another homerun! the basketball analogy is genius. the comment thread here is an indication of how painful the truth can be. well done! :)

    • doublevision

      oh, yes, the basketball analogy, yeah, wow, that was really something…the basketball analogy…wow…pure genius………………………………………………………………………………

      • docjohndenver

        Now, doublevision (shout out to the supergroup Foreigner) I just want to say this: the basketball analogy is akin to an URGENT statement made by a JUKE BOX HERO with DOUBLEVISION. So lay off namaste, pal!

  • http://hiryoku-kamui.tumblr.com/ kamuihiryoku

    Just as a shot at the guy way up at the top, what’s his issue with calling the Washington Times the “Moonie Paper”? I happen to be a Moonie, and I’m curious what about that constitutes a point anyway…just thought I’d ask.

    • guywayatthetop

      Your query contains an outright lie. Do you think you deserve a response?

      • docjohndenver

        now,doublepeacheshermanzhivago, we know this is you. dont be coy.

        • doublescoop

          Not trying to be. Just repeating his description. Man, doublepeaches sure sounds good! Now you got me thinking about Graeter's peach ice cream!

      • kamuihiryoku

        My query contains an outright lie? What lie would that be?

  • doubledover

    I am starting to worry about Kev. We haven't heard a thing from him since his article in the Moonie Times. I fear that his involvement with the Moonies has led to his induction into one of their "education centers". Perhaps he has been called to be the new Adam. Please Kevin, if you read this, let us know that you are well.

  • docjohndenver

    doublebadness,

    I am thinking the fried peaches we used to eat in the south twenty five years ago when I was in college. Dip them in this ridiculously sweet stuff. OMG! as my eighteen year old daughter would say.

    • doubledoobie

      Speaking of the munchies, doc, do have any thoughts on the medical marijuana issue?

      • docjohndenver

        doublejointed (pun intended),

        I personally have no problem with medical marijuana. It can be helpful in some instances. Glaucoma, chronic pain (although there are a lot of other options here and treatment should be tailored to the individual patient and problem). However, I am sick of twenty something potheads coming into my office and asking me to sign their form. I haven't been trained in how to properly use it, it's legal in our state but illegal federally I think, and there are myriad problems with some of these shady headshops masquerading as "pharmacies". At this point, at least in Colorado, pot probably needs to be completely legalized because right now anybody that wants a card can get a doc to sign one. It's kind of a racket out here and since half of my patients drink like fish it's hard for me to get too excited about weed. I do, however, not agree with legalization of all drugs. I've walked around Amsterdam and don't have any desire to see Denver City Park turn into a nightmare like that. I am (and this may surprise you since you think I am in the right wing fascist category I'm sure) kind of a libertarian about most of this stuff. If we are going to treat mary jane as a real medication, though, we need to have some sort of blanket training of us docs.

        • doubletake

          OK Interesting. Just wanted to get your take on it. We agree on all of the above. I, too, have been to Amsterdam and I don't know if we are ready for all of that.

          • docjohndenver

            double, what we always get with the legalized drug thing is the proverbial "slippery slope" argument. I hate that argument. "Well, if we legalize pot, cocaine and heroin are next." Why? They aren't remotely similar. One makes you mellow and makes you Bogart a bag of chips while the others are fiercely addictive and unbelievably destructive to society (see Amsterdam). The reality here in Colorado is that pot is essentially legal already. You going to give an eighteen year old that blows a blunt with his buddy a record when he can go to some quack down the street, get a card, and smoke all he wants? It's weird. But if we are going to call pot a medical therapy then doctors need to be taught about it in medical school and it needs to be closely monitored like other meds, you know?

          • Guest woman

            I think DE-Criminalizing is the word I prefer. I think MJ as a medicine is highly over -rated……. there are plenty of "other" things that can relieve symptoms of whatever ails ya. Although many people say that you cannot get addicted to pot… lemme let you talk to some of the people I know……. any DRUG [ and I put alcohol in the DRUG category] used to escape whatever is going on in your life is addictive. I just can't see putting marijuana on the shelves. Oh, btw… it used to be OTC waaay back in the early turn of the century. Same effects. lol

          • docjohndenver

            Guest woman goddess,

            I agree with everything you say here. I just have not seen many serious problems caused by pot in my patients over the years. Compared to alcohol it isn't even a blip on the radar screen. I also agree that it is a very so-so medication as you can tell from my previous posts. But this sort-of legal, sort-of illegal thing is goofy. As docs we don't really know what to do with it and anyone who wants to smoke weed can with very little concern. So it essentially is already legal, I guess, is my main point. But I agree there are people who use it as a crutch. It does not, however, cause serious physical withdrawal effects (tachycardia, dyspnea, palpitations, diaphoresis, etc.) if you take it away for a few days. Try doing that to a heroin addict and most of them are in the hospital or stealing to get their next fix. Medically, the physical withdrawal is often the distinction between "habitual" and "addictive". But it is a largely academic argument.

          • Guest woman

            I wonder if they have ever put "stoned" people behind the wheel of a car….. in clinical settings of course….. to measure their reaction time ? I'm old now… but I did smoke a little [ and really only a little.... cause I didn't like the effects of it] reefer in my early college days.. and maybe it was just me, but I felt like I was in slow-motion…….. a couple of people and I were talking about it… like driving down the side road going 10 mph and it felt like going 50 mph….. then like: Oh Wow ! I may need to break this thing………..UPPPPP yonder… move foot ! move!
            ha ha

          • docjohndenver

            Guest woman, you hit the one place that makes legalization very tricky. I will say that I have had very few if any patients in auto accidents known to be caused by marijuana. But it is harder generally to tell that someone is a little bit stoned than it is to tell they are drunk on site of an accident. This is because cops can do a breathalizer for alcohol but not for pot. If you test for THC the test can be positive for WEEKS so making a direct correlation can be very hard. Suppose a person causes a wreck stoned…their lawyer then may argue that he wasn't stoned, but that the level was still up from a party two weeks ago. The writing of the law as it relates to auto accidents would be very tricky unless an immediate test with rapid wash out comes out. You are absolutely right on this point, I think. All that stipulated, weed still is minor league compared to the destruction of families, crime, abuse, etc. that I see related to alcohol overall.

          • Guest woman

            Alcohol IS legal…….. why add anything more to the soup? Just saying

          • docjohndenver

            Guest woman, how dare you use logic and simple ethics to refute me?!